Meta Description: Join Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle in Ad Navseam Episode 52 for a late-night deep dive into Lucretius. From the horror of Iphigenia’s sacrifice to the physics of the “Swerve,” discover why this ancient poem is the “Whole Enchilada” of the Latin language.
Introduction: Late Night in the Vomitorium
Welcome back to the “Vomitorium,” listeners! It is Episode 52 of the Ad Navseam Podcast, and the candles are burning low. We are recording “down here late night,” but despite the hour and the long day, the enthusiasm remains high . Why? Because the classics aren’t going to appreciate themselves. It is our job to bring the heat, even when the sun has gone down.
The episode kicks off with a bit of an identity crisis. Dr. Noe mentions reading an essay by Victor Davis Hanson, a fellow traveler in the world of the classics. Hanson argues that “popularizers” are the ones keeping the tradition alive, but he hates the term “popularizer” because it sounds too much like “vulgarizer.” His solution? He calls them “Expanders.”
Dr. Winkle is not having it. “Expander” sounds like someone gaining weight or, worse, a terrifying piece of orthodontic headgear for a teenager. It conjures images of “Sansa-belt trousers” and suspenders. Dr. Noe suggests “Broadener,” which leads to a confusing anecdote about cleaning a garage. In the end, we are left searching for a neologism. If you have a better title for two guys talking about the Latin language and Greek history, let us know. Until then, we soldier on as the un-expanders.
Shout-Out: Guten Tag from Bavaria
Before we return to the nature of the universe, we have a shout-out to Martin Schmidt from Augsburg, Germany. Martin dropped us a line from the land of Teutonic mountains and excellent mechanical pencils.
Dr. Noe recalls a trip to Saarbrücken where he bought a mechanical pencil that he loved dearly—until he lost it, likely alongside his watch at Delphi. Dr. Winkle attempts to lure Dr. Noe into a pun about “worst” (wurst), but Dr. Noe wisely lets the softball drop. Guten Tag, Martin, and thank you for listening!
The Opening Quote: Ovid’s Prophecy
Appropriately, it was our listener Martin Schmidt who suggested this week’s opening quote from Ovid’s Amores. It is a stunning endorsement of Lucretius from one of the greatest masters of the Latin language.
Carmina sublimis tunc sunt peritura Lucreti,
exitio terras cum dabit una dies.
“Then the works of sublime Lucretius will endure while there’s a day left till the world’s ruin.”
This is high praise. Ovid, writing a generation later, recognizes that Lucretius has written something eternal. As long as the earth lasts, Lucretius will last. It is a nice intertextual nod from one genius to another.
Renaming the Masterpiece
We return to a recurring grievance: the title. De Rerum Natura is standardly translated as On the Nature of Things. As Dr. Winkle pointed out last week, this is abysmal marketing. It fails to capture the grandeur, the scope, and the sheer audacity of the poem.
So, the workshop continues. Dr. Noe suggests “El Chalupa Grande” (The Big Chalupa) or, with a nod to Don Henley, “The Heart of the Matter”. Later in the episode, Dr. Noe offers a Seussian alternative: “The Shape of Me and Other Stuff”. Dr. Winkle counters with the philosophical “Turtles All the Way Down”. Ultimately, they seem to settle on “The Heart of Hidden Things” (based on a line from the poem itself) or perhaps just “The Whole Enchilada.” Whatever you call it, it is a comprehensive theory of everything.
Epicureanism Recap: The Shipwreck and the Wilburys
To understand Lucretius, you have to understand his master, Epicurus. The goal of life is Ataraxia (freedom from disturbance). It isn’t about wild hedonism; it’s about chilling in a garden with friends. Dr. Noe uses a famous Lucretian image to explain this: The Shipwreck. Lucretius says there is something “really, really satisfying” about standing safely on the shore and watching a ship go down in a storm. You aren’t happy that people are drowning; you are happy that you aren’t drowning. It is the relief of escaping the storm.
This leads to a tangent about the supergroup The Traveling Wilburys. When Roy Orbison died, George Harrison reportedly called Tom Petty and asked, “Aren’t you glad it wasn’t you?” It sounds cruel, but it is purely Epicurean. It is the grim satisfaction of survival. It is the relief of knowing you are safe on the shore while the world burns.
The Horror of Religion: Iphigenia at Aulis
Why do we need this philosophy? Because religion is terrifying. Lucretius argues that religion (religio or superstitio) drives men to commit heinous acts. To prove it, he retells the myth of Iphigenia at Aulis. Agamemnon, the leader of the Greeks, sacrifices his own daughter to get favorable winds for Troy. Dr. Winkle reads the Smith translation, describing the ribbon in her hair, the father standing sorrowfully by the altar, and the girl realizing that being the “first to give the king the name of father” won’t save her.
Instead of a wedding hymn, she gets the knife.
“To enable a fleet to receive the blessing of a prosperous and propitious departure. Such heinous acts could superstition prompt.”
Is Lucretius cherry-picking? Yes. Human sacrifice wasn’t exactly a daily occurrence in Greece. But he uses this extreme example to show how religious fear can override natural affection and morality.
Venus and Mars: The Power of Love
Despite his attacks on religion, Lucretius opens his poem with a prayer to Venus. Why? Because Venus represents the creative force of nature. But in the invocation, he also asks her to pacify Mars (War). He describes Mars reclining in Venus’s lap, “vanquished by the never healing wound of love,” gazing up at her in open-mouthed wonder.
“As he rests upon your holy body, bend, goddess, to enfold him in your arms… let a stream of sweet, coaxing words flow in an appeal on behalf of the Romans for placid peace.”
Dr. Noe points out that this image inspired Botticelli’s painting Mars and Venus. Mars is asleep, disarmed, while little satyrs play with his helmet and lance. It is the ultimate anti-war statement: Love conquers War. In the chaos of the late Roman Republic (remember, Lucretius is writing during the civil wars), this plea for peace was desperate and real.
Atomism and the Swerve
Finally, we get to the physics. Lucretius is an atomist.
- Seeds: He calls atoms semina (seeds).
- Void: The universe is just atoms falling through a void.
- Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit: Nothing comes from nothing. The universe is eternal.
But if everything is just atoms falling in straight lines, how do we have free will? Enter the Clinamen (The Swerve). Lucretius argues that occasionally, randomly, an atom “swerves” a tiny bit. This swerve breaks the chain of determinism. It creates collisions, which create worlds. And in the human mind, it creates Free Will. When you decide to listen to Nazareth instead of Roy Orbison, that is the Swerve in action. It is a brilliant (if scientifically baffling) attempt to save human freedom in a materialist universe.
The A.A. Long Bathroom Encounter
Dr. Noe ends the educational portion with a personal anecdote about the famous scholar A.A. Long. While a grad student at the University of Iowa, Dr. Noe found himself in the restroom at the same time as the great professor. Seizing the moment (and perhaps violating bathroom etiquette), he asked Long a burning question about Stoicism while they washed their hands. Later, his advisor told him, “You made a really good impression on Long. It was the question you asked in the bathroom.” The lesson? Be persistent. And maybe have good timing.
Sponsors: Fuel for Your Swerve
This deep dive into the nature of the cosmos is supported by:
- Ratio Coffee: Dr. Noe uses the Ratio 8, and Dr. Winkle swears by the Ratio 6. It brews coffee with a “Fibonacci head” that banishes the scorched taste of lesser machines.
- The Deal: Visit ratiocoffee.com and use code ANCO for 15% off.
- Hackett Publishing: For the Martin Ferguson Smith translation of Lucretius used in this very episode. They have a “deep bench” of titles from Asian studies to modern philosophy.
- The Deal: Visit hackettpublishing.com and use code AN2021 for 20% off and free shipping.
- Ad Astra Roasters: Based in Hillsdale, Michigan. Dr. Noe has a new favorite roast: The Whitney. It is nutty, rich, and named after a Civil War hero.
- The Deal: Visit adastraroasters.com and use code ANAA for 15% off.
Conclusion: Stickers and Office Hours
Dr. Noe reminds listeners about the Moss Method “Back to School” sale (15% off). Plus, he is now offering Office Hours every Friday for students to ask questions about Homer, the New Testament, or Greek grammar.
And don’t forget the Stickers! For $3.99, you get a sticker and a hand-signed note. We don’t use a stamp; we use a pen (and maybe a potato, according to Dr. Noe).
The Gustatory Parting Shot
We wrap up this epic discussion with an unsourced quote, offering a culinary analogy that resonates with anyone who loves a good rhythm section:
“What bass guitar is to music… that’s what garlic is to your food.”
It’s the key ingredient. Without it, the song (and the sauce) just doesn’t work.
Valete!
Resources for the Latin and Greek Learner:The Moss Method: Want to read Lucretius’s De Rerum Natura in the original? Or perhaps tackle the New Testament? Go from “Neophyte to Erudite” with Dr. Noe’s self-paced courses. Visit latinperdiem.com.
