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Mocktober and The Revenge of the Scribes: Unpacking Marrou’s History of Education (Ad Navseam Ep. 133)

Meta Description: Join Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe in Ad Navseam Episode 133 as they tackle H.I. Marrou’s classic tome on ancient education. Discover the Tuesday Curse of 1453, the debate over the “sage on the stage,” and the historical shift from the noble warrior to the humble scribe. Plus, mastering the Latin language in Texas and the elusive flawless flight.

Introduction: Mocktober and The Texas Twilight Zone

Welcome back, classical gourmands, to Episode 133 of the Ad Navseam Podcast! Broadcasting from the depths of the underground bunker in West Michigan, your hosts Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe are battling the dreary, drizzly weather of “Mocktober”—a month that seems to fundamentally mock the very concept of crisp autumn weather.

Both hosts recently returned from separate trips down to the much warmer, southern climes of Texas. Dr. Winkle was in Dallas, indulging his inner JFK assassination buff by dragging two of his college buddies to Dealey Plaza. Jeff notes how visiting a place you have seen on television your entire life is always a surreal experience; Dealey Plaza looked and felt exactly as he expected, right down to the eerie time-capsule feeling of the surrounding blocks where businessmen still walk around with crew cuts and skinny black ties.

Dr. Noe, on the other hand, was in Waco at Baylor University for the Biduum Primum Baylorense. Invited by his colleagues Dr. Patrick M. Owens and Dr. David White, Dave spent his Saturday doing what he does best: passionately speaking the Latin language with fellow scholars.

Most shockingly of all, both hosts experienced a terrifying anomaly on their respective journeys home: every single flight connection was absolutely flawless. There were no delays, no cancellations, and no metaphorical “Mothras” sweeping across the tarmac to halt their progress. Dave describes perambulating through the Atlanta airport with such ease that it felt like a locus amoenus (a beautiful, perfect setting where a hidden danger usually lurks), leaving both men highly suspicious that the universe was plotting against them.

The Shout-Out: Hope from UVA

The hosts take a moment to read a wonderful piece of correspondence from listener Hope Ladd, a Ph.D. student in Classics at the prestigious University of Virginia. Hope praises the podcast’s ability to seamlessly blend serious scholarship with a casual, accessible format. She highlights the Aeneid series, the episode on the Delphic Oracle (complete with its Wizard of Oz music intro), and the classic “10 Things You Hated About Grad School” episode as her favorites.

Hope also credits Dr. Noe’s LatinPerDiem videos for helping her master the Latin language through high school and her undergraduate studies at Hillsdale College. However, Hope crosses a dangerous line in her post-script when she asks Dr. Winkle to “finally get to talk about Apuleius”. Dr. Noe immediately shuts that request down, but the hosts promise to consult with Ratio Coffee‘s Mark Helweg to see if they can get Hope a second chance at winning a coffee machine giveaway.

Entering the Marrou Era: The History of Education

The main event of Episode 133 is the beginning of a massive new series analyzing the monumental work of Henri-Irénée Marrou, a French historian and Christian humanist born in 1904. Marrou was a wildly prolific scholar of late antiquity, producing roughly a book a year during his peak, and is best known for the 466-page masterpiece the hosts are tackling: A History of Education in Antiquity (published in 1948).

Why spend multiple episodes discussing ancient education? Dr. Noe points out three fundamental reasons:

  1. We are all educated individuals, meaning we are the direct heirs to this system.
  2. The hosts themselves are educators constantly refining their pedagogy.
  3. There has been a massive modern resurgence in the “Classical Education” movement, and reading Marrou will help untangle what the ancients actually did versus what modern schools simply claim they did.

This sparks an insightful pedagogical debate between the hosts. Dr. Winkle defines his own teaching philosophy as focusing heavily on critical thinking; he loves to present two polarized sides of an argument and force the students to muster evidence to defend or refute them.

Dr. Noe rails against the modern academic trend of the professor acting purely as a “guide on the side” (a co-learner who simply facilitates student discovery). Instead, Dave proudly advocates for a return to the “sage on the stage”. He argues that a good teacher must actively exemplify the traits they wish to cultivate—including the demonstration of actual, hard-earned expertise. Jeff agrees, noting that while learning from students occasionally happens, treating the classroom like the “inmates running the asylum” fundamentally diminishes the value of the professor’s knowledge.

The Noble Warrior vs. The Scribe

Diving into Marrou’s introduction, Dr. Noe outlines the chronological scope of the book: from the time of Homer (roughly 1000 BC) to the fall of the Roman Empire (around AD 500).

Marrou defines education as “a collective technique which a society employs to instruct its youth in the values and accomplishments of the civilization within which it exists”. Dr. Winkle appreciates this definition, noting that it requires a society to actually have a shared, unified vision of what is important—a consensus that feels profoundly fractured in modern culture. Furthermore, Marrou pushes back against the ancient obsession with the “parabola” shape of history (a rapid ascent, a brief peak or acme, and an inevitable decline). Instead, Marrou argues that classical education took centuries to mature, but once it reached its definitive character, it plateaued and lasted for centuries, splitting into Byzantine and Latin streams before being brutally ended by historical invasions.

Marrou identifies a grand historical shift in ancient education: the transition from a “noble warrior culture” to a “scribe culture”. In the archaic period, the ideal was the isolated, chivalric, aristocratic warrior (like Achilles or Diomedes in the Iliad), who was taught to be “a speaker of words and a doer of deeds”.

However, as large, centralized empires and absolute monarchies grew in the Ancient Near East (such as in Egypt and Mesopotamia), a new class arose: the humble bookkeeper. This bureaucratic clerk, mastering the complex technology of writing, eventually became the bedrock of civil service and political power. It was, as Dr. Winkle perfectly summarizes, the ultimate “revenge of the nerds”.

Crucially, Marrou argues that education is the “concentrated epitome of a culture” and absolutely cannot be detached from its original civilization and simply pasted onto another. This serves as a massive warning flag to modern “Classical Education” schools: we can certainly borrow values and read the great texts, but we cannot realistically claim to be educating our children in the same manner as the ancient Greeks.

Sponsors: Fuel for the Classical Renaissance

To prepare for the long intellectual journey through Marrou’s tome, the hosts invite you to support the sponsors that make Ad Navseam possible:

The Gustatory Parting Shot

Before the hosts pack up and leave the bunker, Dr. Winkle delivers a Gustatory Parting Shot that expertly hits the Ad Navseam “duofecta”: combining food with a classical reference.

Quoting the great British writer Samuel Johnson:

“A man is in general better pleased when he has a good dinner upon his table than when his wife talks Greek.”

While initially sounding a bit chauvinistic, the hosts decide to take it optimistically: Johnson is thrilled that his wife speaks Greek, but he is just slightly more thrilled by a giant, well-cooked dinner. Valete!

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