Meta Description: Join Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe in Ad Navseam Episode 191 as they explore Plato’s Apology, the Socratic elenchus, and resources to master the Latin language.
Introduction: Autumnal Crispness and Study Away
Welcome back, classical gourmands, to Episode 191 of the Ad Navseam Podcast! Broadcasting from the subterranean depths of Bunker Central, your hosts, Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle, return to the microphones for another discussion of Greco-Roman civilization.
The episode opens with the hosts acknowledging the shifting seasons in West Michigan. Jeff notes the hoary frost and the foliage threatening to turn, while Dave laments the brevity of the Midwestern autumn, observing that the season often vanishes into snow shoveling before it can be fully enjoyed. The autumnal theme carries into the hosts’ banter regarding their middle initials. Dave claims his “C” stands for “crisp,” reflecting his intent to keep the upcoming philosophical discussion sharp and focused. Jeff suggests his “T” stands for “top of the morning” or “teamwork”.
Jeff arrives in the studio wearing a t-shirt from Grand Rapids Community College emblazoned with the phrase “Study Away” and a small airplane. The hosts joke about the irony of modern higher education, where a primary goal of enrolling in an institution is to immediately study somewhere else.
The Husky Philosopher and Sicilian Failures
The primary academic focus of Episode 191 is the second part of their ongoing analysis of Plato’s Apology. To frame the historical figure of Plato, Dave reads from H.J. Rose’s 1934 text, A Handbook of Greek Literature. Rose praises Plato not only as an original thinker but as an unparalleled literary stylist who could have easily achieved fame as a dramatist or orator.
Rose provides a brief biography, noting that Plato was born around 427 BC and died near 347 BC. He belonged to an ancient Athenian family, born to Ariston and Perictione, with brothers Glaucon and Adeimantus famously appearing in the Republic. According to late classical lore passed down by his nephew Speusippus, Plato’s given name was actually Aristocles. He earned the nickname “Plato” (from the Greek platus, meaning broad) either due to an unusually wide forehead or broad shoulders. Dave jokes that this robust physical build forced the young philosopher to shop for “husky” sized chitons.
Adding to the biographical lore, Jeff shares a favorite anecdote regarding Plato’s pedagogical style at the Academy. Tradition suggests Plato was a dry, unengaging lecturer who deliberately bored his students to drive them away. After one particularly tedious reading where the students gradually slipped out of the theater, Plato looked up to find only a single student remaining: Aristotle.
Rose’s history also touches on Plato’s failed political ambitions. Disillusioned by Athenian democracy after the execution of Socrates, Plato traveled to Syracuse in Sicily around 388 BC at the invitation of the tyrant Dionysius I. He later returned to tutor Dionysius II, hoping to mold the young ruler into a true philosopher-king. The experiment was an utter failure. The tyrant ignored Plato’s idealistic advice, banished Plato’s political ally Dion, and essentially held the philosopher under house arrest.
The Royal Stoa and Stephanus Pages
Before returning to the text of the Apology, Jeff raises a logistical question regarding the trial of Socrates. Having recently visited the Athenian Agora, he observed the remains of the Royal Stoa, the historical site of the trial. Knowing that a capital case required a jury of 500 citizens, Jeff struggles to comprehend how such a massive crowd could fit into the relatively small architectural footprint. Dave offers a series of humorous, shoot-from-the-hip theories, suggesting the ancients were physically smaller, utilized temporary wooden bleachers, or simply held their breath to squeeze together.
The hosts then direct their attention to Stephanus page 21b. Dave takes a moment to explain the Stephanus pagination system, a universal reference tool utilized by classicists worldwide. Developed by the Geneva printer Henri Estienne (Stephanus) in 1578, this system divides the Platonic corpus into specific pages and lettered sections, allowing scholars to locate specific passages regardless of the modern translation or publisher. Dave jokes that Estienne’s monumental labor proves he was the exact opposite of the podcast’s recurring fictional character, “Lazy Steve”.
The Oracle and the Rhomboid Office
At Stephanus 21b, Socrates begins explaining the origins of his public unpopularity. He recounts how his friend Chaerephon traveled to Delphi to ask the oracle a straightforward question: is anyone wiser than Socrates? The oracle answered that no one was wiser.
This divine pronouncement created a profound paradox for the philosopher. Socrates was acutely aware of his own ignorance, yet he believed the god Apollo could not lie. To solve this riddle, Socrates began cross-examining citizens who possessed a reputation for wisdom.
He started with the politicians. The hosts pause to consider why Socrates targeted politicians first, noting that public figures often command unearned respect simply due to the prestige of their office. Dave compares this to the modern American presidency, joking that the office commands respect largely because of its unique geometric shape. Jeff admits that his own office at the community college is shaped like a rhombus, an architectural quirk that fails to inspire much awe.
Socrates quickly discovered that the politicians only appeared wise to themselves and others. When Socrates systematically exposed their ignorance, he generated intense hostility. Jeff observes that Socrates seemed entirely oblivious to common social cues, acting genuinely surprised that powerful men resented having their foolishness publicly unmasked.
Vlastos, the Elenchus, and the Chalupa
To better understand Socrates’ method of cross-examination, Dave reads from Gregory Vlastos’s 1994 book, Socratic Studies. Vlastos outlines the evolution of the Socratic method, noting that in early dialogues like the Apology, Socrates utilizes the method of refutation (elenchus) without ever formally defining or justifying it. Only in the middle dialogues does Plato’s Socrates begin to explicitly discuss his methodos.
Vlastos breaks down the standard Socratic elenchus into four distinct steps. First, the interlocutor asserts a thesis (Proposition P) that Socrates considers false. Second, Socrates secures the interlocutor’s agreement on further, seemingly unrelated premises (Propositions Q and R). Third, Socrates demonstrates that Q and R logically entail the direct opposite of the original thesis (Not P). Finally, because the interlocutor has agreed to Q and R, they are forced to admit that their original thesis (P) is false.
Dave seeks to provide a highly relatable, fast-food analogy to illustrate the concept. If Jeff asserts that the Taco Bell chalupa is the best item on the menu (Proposition P), Dave would ask him to agree to secondary premises about culinary quality (Q and R). By tracing the logical implications of Q and R, Dave would force Jeff to admit that the chalupa is, in fact, not the best item. Jeff rejects this conclusion, firmly maintaining his loyalty to the chalupa.
Poets, Craftsmen, and Idiots
Continuing his divine mission, Socrates moves on to the poets. He questions the tragic and dithyrambic writers, assuming they must possess deep wisdom to compose such moving verses. Instead, he finds they cannot explain the meaning of their own poetry, acting merely as conduits for inspiration without possessing true knowledge.
Finally, Socrates approaches the craftsmen. The hosts compare these ancient tradesmen to modern plumbers and welders, noting that society often undervalues the “street smarts” of blue-collar workers. Socrates admits that the craftsmen genuinely know many fine things regarding their specific trades. However, their technical expertise breeds a fatal flaw: because they excel at their craft, they mistakenly believe they possess wisdom regarding the most important matters of state and morality. Jeff compares this to modern rock musicians who use their artistic platform to pontificate on complex political issues.
Socrates concludes that he is better off remaining exactly as he is: possessing neither the specific knowledge of the craftsmen nor their overarching ignorance. This relentless pursuit of the truth consumes his life, leaving him in extreme poverty. He redefines the concept of leisure, dedicating his time entirely to the god rather than engaging in civic affairs. Dave notes this is a radical stance in ancient Athens, where a citizen who avoided politics was deemed an “idiot”. Furthermore, Socrates attracts a following of wealthy young men who treat his cross-examinations as sport, imitating his methods and deflating the egos of the Athenian elite—a habit that ultimately contributes to his trial and execution.
Sponsors: Fueling the Classical Renaissance
Before sharing the parting shot, the hosts extend their gratitude to the sponsors keeping the bunker operational.
- Hackett Publishing: Hackett is releasing a major new work in philosophy: Aristotle, the Complete Works, edited by C.D.C. Reeve and Pavlos Kontos. This marks the first collection of new English translations of the Aristotelian corpus since 1954. The podcast is giving away a copy of Hackett’s A Plato Reader; listeners can enter by emailing Dave with “Plato” in the subject line. Build a library at hackettpublishing.com and use the code AN2025 to receive 20% off and free shipping.
- Ratio Coffee: Avoid the brackish tang of lesser machines and upgrade to the Ratio 8 or Ratio 4. Jeff praises his machine for successfully balancing the flavor of a questionable “Yellowstone Ranch” coffee blend, while Dave uses his Ratio 8 alongside a Baratza Encore grinder. Visit ratiocoffee.com/adnavseam and enter the promo code ANRATIO2025 for a $20 discount.
- Della Chelpka Art: For those seeking visual inspiration, Della Chelpka is a Tucson-based oil painter who captures cherished moments with breathtaking detail. Visit dellachelpka.art and use the promo code Apelles (named after the famous classical painter) to receive 10% off your custom order.
- LatinPerDiem & MossMethod: For listeners inspired to master the Latin language and ancient Greek, Dave offers tailored educational solutions. Visit mossmethod.com for Greek, or explore latinperdiem.com/llpsi to tackle Hans Ørberg’s Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata. Use the code 10PLUS for a 10% discount on any course.
The Gustatory Parting Shot
To close out Episode 191, Jeff delivers a serious Gustatory Parting Shot courtesy of the author Jonathan Safran Foer.
From his book Eating Animals, Foer offers this weighty observation regarding the ethics of consumption:
“The animal looks at us and we are naked before it. Silently the animal catches our glance. The animal looks at us and whether we look away from the animal, our plate, our concern, our cells or not, we are exposed. Whether we change our lives or do nothing, we have responded. To do nothing is to do something.”
Acknowledging the heavy tone of the quote, Jeff admits he still fully intends to eat a chalupa.A special thanks goes out to Mishka the sound engineer for her rapid turnaround times. Musical gratitude is extended to Jeff Scheetz for his work on the shredding lead guitar tracks Thrillseeker and Rush Hour. Check out the “Lurch with Merch” section on the website, beware of ignorant politicians, and keep taking in the classics. Valete!
