Meta Description: Join Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe in Ad Navseam Episode 149 as they explore Hellenistic education, Isocrates versus Plato, and resources to master the Latin language.
Introduction: Morning Oil and the Carp-Dressed Man
Welcome back, classical gourmands, to Episode 149 of the Ad Navseam Podcast! Broadcasting from the subterranean depths of the bunker, your hosts, Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle, return to the microphones.
Recording on a balmy Tuesday morning just after 9:00 a.m., the hosts note this is an unusually early start for their operation. Dave admits he prefers to burn the midnight oil, “lucubrating” late into the night, only to suffer the consequences when he wakes up early the next day regardless of his bedtime. Jeff, on the other hand, references the classic Seinfeld gag, noting that “nighttime Jerry has no consideration for morning Jerry,” a truth Jeff frequently experiences when he stays up until 1:30 a.m. to consume one more television episode or a sleeve of Fig Newtons.
Hoping to set a high bar for the episode’s humor, Dave launches into a complex, musical joke. He recounts a fictional memory from his youth when he attempted to impress women by donning a clean shirt, new shoes, a silk suit, and a black tie. Strutting through a public area, he claims he tripped and fell directly into a fountain filled with goldfish, ruining his sharp attire. However, he realized the disaster was actually a triumph, delivering the punchline: “Every girl’s crazy ’bout a carp-dressed man”. Acknowledging they may have reached a new low of stupidity with this ZZ Top pun, the hosts proudly pass the comedic gauntlet to Jeff for the following week.
Isocrates vs. Plato: Finesse and the Geometrical Mind
The primary academic focus of Episode 149 resumes the podcast’s journey through Henri-Irénée Marrou’s A History of Education in Antiquity. The hosts wrap up their coverage of the educator Isocrates before transitioning into Part II, Chapter I, titled “The Civilization of the Paideia”.
Marrou contrasts the educational philosophies of Isocrates and Plato by utilizing Blaise Pascal’s framework of the two minds: the “spirit of finesse” and the “geometrical spirit”. Plato favored the geometrical approach, relying on dialectic and objective mathematics to arrive at absolute truth (episteme). In stark contrast, Isocrates believed that attempting to turn human virtue into an exact science like mathematics was absurd. Instead, Isocrates fostered the spirit of finesse, relying on literature and the art of speech to sharpen a student’s faculty of judgment and navigate the complex imponderables of human reality.
This philosophical divide prompts a discussion regarding the modern “classical education” movement. Dave observes that many contemporary advocates assume a simple, automatic correlation between reading ancient texts and developing moral character. The hosts challenge this assumption, arguing that reading the classics must be actively tied to Socratic self-examination. Even then, Dave notes from a Christian perspective that self-examination alone is inadequate; if looking inward merely leads to despair, education must be anchored in a higher theological reality to produce true virtue.
Jazz Progressions
Exploring Isocrates’ belief that “the right word is a sure sign of good thinking,” the hosts debate the relationship between form and content. Isocrates argued that the inability to articulate a thought clearly indicates a lack of genuine understanding.
To explore the connection between form and emotion, Dave shares a story about his nephew, a talented jazz pianist. While playing the piano at Dave’s house, the nephew ended a complex song without resolving the final chord progression. When Dave admitted his ear was screaming for musical resolution, his nephew thoughtfully replied that “sometimes life remains unresolved”.
Jeff connects this to the mathematical underpinnings of music, referencing a famous comedy sketch called “The Four Chord Song” by an Australian or New Zealand comedy troupe. The sketch humorously demonstrates that nearly 50 decades of popular music rely on the exact same four-chord progression, highlighting the human ear’s mathematical desire for predictable, satisfying resolution—a contrast to the complex, challenging artistry of classical composers like Bach.
The Hellenistic Juggernaut and the Grid City
Transitioning into the Hellenistic era, Marrou notes that classical education assumed its definitive, final form in the generation following Aristotle and Alexander the Great, undergoing no substantial change thereafter. The hosts note the irony that modern classical education relies less on the golden age of Periclean Athens and more heavily on the formalized structures of the later Hellenistic period, where Isocrates’ practical approach largely won the day over Plato’s utopian ideals.
The Hellenistic era was sparked by Alexander’s massive military expansion, pushing the borders of Greek influence over 2,000 miles eastward to the Indus River. The hosts compare this staggering distance to the 2,175-mile drive from Grand Rapids, Michigan, to Los Angeles, California, marveling at the logistical nightmare of ancient armies marching such a route on foot.
As Alexander’s successors Hellenized the East, they established urban centers modeled on Greek architecture. Dave praises the ancient Greek city grid, designed with practical right angles to allow citizens to navigate efficiently. The hosts contrast this logical design with modern American infrastructure, where circuitous suburban roads and confusing one-way streets operate like a Denny’s kids menu maze.
Politically, this vast expansion caused the traditional framework of the tight-knit city-state (polis) to break down. Education shifted its focus away from corporate, totalitarian pressure toward cultivating the individual, autonomous human person.
Scribe Education and the Tennis Court Exam
With the rise of Hellenistic individualism, education took a distinctly scholastic turn. Marrou notes the transition to a “scribe education,” where learning became entirely dependent on books and literature.
Consequently, the physical aspect of Greek education rapidly subsided. The ancient aristocratic ideal of the “scholar-athlete”—a man equally adept at quoting Homer and throwing the javelin—faded into obscurity. Jeff jokes this historical shift resembles a real-life “Revenge of the Nerds,” firmly dividing society into the modern stereotypes of the unathletic professor and the unlettered jock.
This prompts the hosts to lament the state of modern physical education. Jeff recalls a frustrating college PE course where, instead of simply learning how to play tennis on the court, he was forced to take an academic paper-and-pencil exam detailing the exact mathematical dimensions of the court. Both hosts agree that the cultural abandonment of the “sound body” aspect of education represents a genuine loss. Furthermore, Marrou bluntly states there was no strictly autonomous Roman education; the Romans were entirely absorbed into the Hellenistic sphere, cementing their reputation as cultural derivatives of the Greeks.
The Religion of Culture and Unmarked Graves
Marrou concludes the chapter by identifying a phenomenon he terms “The Religion of Culture”. In the Hellenistic world, high culture (paideia) transformed into a spiritual absolute. With traditional civic beliefs collapsing, individuals sought immortality and dignity through their intellectual attainments.
This cultural shift is visible in ancient epitaphs. Regardless of their actual profession—whether merchants, doctors, or soldiers—Hellenistic citizens desperately wanted their tombstones to record that they had “won the friendship of the muses” and possessed a cultured mind. Previously, apotheosis (elevation to divine status) was reserved for city founders or rare intellectuals like Pythagoras. In this new era, obtaining salvation through the muses became a democratized, widespread pursuit.
Reflecting on funereal artistry, the hosts discuss their own preferences for memorialization. Jeff jokes that his tombstone should include a link to his SoundCloud account, highlighting his lifelong dedication to teaching himself the piano and the guitar. Dave envisions a marker inscribed with Greek and Latin verses, perhaps featuring the New Testament challenge: “Why do you seek the living among the dead?” The hosts contrast this with the reformer John Calvin, who explicitly demanded an unmarked grave in a potter’s field to avoid drawing attention to himself, and the modern grave of saxophonist Junior Walker in Battle Creek, which proudly displays his musical instrument as a testament to his own friendship with the muses.
Sponsors: Fueling the Classical Renaissance
Before delivering the parting shot, the hosts are interrupted by a banging sound on the bunker doors. They realize it is “Diligent Steve,” a character seeking recompense and serving as a callback to the “Lazy Steve” memory-palace joke established way back in episodes 18. Beating a hasty retreat to avoid Steve’s vendetta, the hosts extend their gratitude to the sponsors keeping the podcast operational.
- Ratio Coffee: Dave and Jeff highly recommend upgrading from mass-produced coffee machines to the beautiful Ratio 8 or Ratio 6. They eagerly anticipate the upcoming release of the Ratio 4, an affordable, sleek half-batch machine capable of brewing 5 to 20 ounces. Visit ratiocoffee.com and enter the promo code ANCOF1 for a 15% discount.
- Hackett Publishing: With offices in Indianapolis and Cambridge, Hackett has provided high-quality texts for 53 years. The hosts praise their diverse catalog, which includes Greek philosophy, Islamic studies, and multiple translation options for major works like Ovid’s Metamorphoses. Build your library at hackettpublishing.com and use the code AN2024 to receive a 20% discount and free shipping on your entire order.
- Latin Per Diem & The Moss Method: For listeners inspired to master the Latin language and ancient Greek, Dave offers tailored educational solutions. Visit mossmethod.com to pursue Greek, or explore latinperdiem.com/llpsi to join the new beta launch of Unit II for Hans Ørberg’s Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata, covering chapters 10 through 18.
The Gustatory Parting Shot
To officially close out Episode 149, the hosts thank Mishka the sound engineer for her rapid turnaround times. Musical gratitude is extended to Scott Van Zen and Ken Tamplin for generously providing the ripping guitar tracks and bumper music.
Jeff then delivers a brief Gustatory Parting Shot courtesy of the ancient philosopher and mathematician, Pythagoras.
Regarding the essential seasoning of life, Pythagoras offers this poetic observation:
“Salt is born of the purest parents, the sun and the sea.”
Check out the “Lurch with Merch” section on the website to grab a QVAE NOCENT DOCENT t-shirt, beware of falling into goldfish fountains in a silk suit, and keep taking in the classics. Valete!
