Meta Description: Join Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle in Ad Navseam Episode 30 as they conclude their tour of the Underworld in Odyssey Book 11. From the tragic Parade of Women to the silent rage of Ajax and the cynical wisdom of Achilles, discover the dark truths of the Greek afterlife and how it contrasts with the Christian concept of resurrection.
Introduction: March Madness in the Vomitorium
Welcome back to the “Vomitorium,” listeners! It is Episode 30 of the Ad Navseam Podcast, and your hosts, Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle, are back in the booth. The atmosphere is still a bit “dank” and eerie—Dr. Winkle admits he hasn’t quite shaken off the gloom of the Underworld from last week—but there is a buzz of excitement in the air. Why? Because it is March, and for sports fans, that means March Madness.
But because this is a podcast for classical gourmands, we can’t just talk about basketball without finding the Latin language or Greek connection. Dr. Winkle drops a “fun fact” that bridges the gap between the NCAA tournament and the ancient world. Have you ever wondered what a “Hoya” is, as in the Georgetown Hoyas?
Dr. Noe admits he always assumed it was a breed of bulldog. It turns out, the truth is far more scholarly. In the late 19th century, Georgetown’s team was known as “The Stonewall.” A student, steeped in the classics, coined a mixed Greek and Latin cheer: “Hoya Saxa!”
- Hoya (Greek): “What” or “Such”
- Saxa (Latin): “Rocks”
So the cheer literally translates to “What Rocks!” It is a testament to a time when Latin and Greek were the common tongue of university life, even in the bleachers. So, Hoya Saxa, listeners. Let’s get ready to rock the Underworld.
Shout-Outs and Pushups
Before descending back into the realm of Hades, we owe a massive shout-out to Mr. Paul Boyer. Paul is a teacher at Glendale Preparatory Academy in Peoria, Arizona, where he teaches junior high Latin. But Paul isn’t just a magister; he is also a state senator and, apparently, the school’s “Pushups Champion.” Dr. Noe playfully estimates that “seven or eight consecutive” pushups makes one a champ, though we suspect Paul can do quite a few more. Paul is also a student of MossMethod, learning Greek to complement his Latin expertise. Way to go, Paul!
The Opening Quote: Paganism vs. Christianity
Dr. Noe sets the theological stage with a profound quote from J. Gresham Machen’s 1923 work, Christianity and Liberalism. This quote frames the entire discussion of the Greek afterlife:
“Paganism is that view of life which finds the highest goal of human existence in the healthy and harmonious and joyous development of existing human faculties… Paganism is optimistic with regard to unaided human nature, whereas Christianity is the religion of the broken heart.”
As we will see, Odysseus’s journey through the afterlife tests this definition of “optimism.” Is the Greek view truly optimistic, or does it ultimately crash against the hard rocks of mortality?
The Parade of Women: A Catalogue of Divine Violence
As Odysseus stands at the edge of the pit, drinking in the stories of the dead, he is visited by a “Parade of Women,” shepherded by Persephone. This section often puzzles modern readers. Why a catalogue of women? And why these women specifically?
Dr. Winkle suggests that Homer is doing two things here. First, he is “showing off” his encyclopedic knowledge of myth, providing cameo appearances for famous figures from Thebes, Pylos, and beyond. It is fan service for an ancient audience.
But darker themes lurk beneath the surface. Almost every woman in this parade is a victim of a god’s violent passion.
- Tyro: Fell in love with a river god, only to be deceived by Poseidon, who took the river’s form to sleep with her.
- Antiope: Slept with Zeus and bore the founders of Thebes.
- Alcmene: The mother of Heracles, another conquest of Zeus.
- Epicasta (Jocasta): The tragic mother/wife of Oedipus, whose story is told here in miniature, proving you don’t need to wait for Sophocles to get the grim details.
Why does Homer include this litany of divine abuse? Dr. Winkle argues it highlights the amoral nature of the Olympian gods. Unlike the God of Plato or Christianity, Zeus and Poseidon are not moral paragons; they are simply powerful entities who take what they want. It is a catalogue of the crimes of the gods, a theme Ovid would later explore in his Metamorphoses.
Agamemnon: The “Marriage Advice” from Hell
Once the women are scattered by Persephone (perhaps using a spectral Swiffer or a can of “Off!”), the male heroes approach. First up is Agamemnon, the leader of the Greek expedition, who met a disastrous end upon his nostos (homecoming).
Agamemnon tells Odysseus the grisly tale of his murder at the hands of his wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aegisthus. While Aeschylus paints Clytemnestra as the “killer queen” wielding the axe, Homer’s Agamemnon portrays himself as a sympathetic victim, glossing over the fact that he sacrificed their daughter Iphigenia to get to Troy.
Agamemnon then offers Odysseus some cynical “marriage advice”:
“Never be too trustful, even of your wife, nor show her all that is in your mind… Women, I tell you, are no longer to be trusted.”
He advises Odysseus to make a “secret approach” when he returns to Ithaca—park around the corner, check the driveway, maybe leave the engine running. It is a stark contrast to the faithful Penelope, but it sows the seeds of caution that define Odysseus’s return. Agamemnon is the shadow-self of Odysseus: the king who came home to a treacherous wife and a usurper, whereas Odysseus will (hopefully) come home to a loyal wife and a faithful son.
Achilles: The Deconstruction of Glory
Then comes the marquee moment: the meeting of Odysseus (the hero of metis/cunning) and Achilles (the hero of bia/force).
Odysseus tries to flatter Achilles, assuming that his immense fame on earth must translate to VIP status in the underworld. “You were the greatest among us… surely you lord it over the dead.”
Achilles shatters this illusion with one of the most famous lines in literature:
“Don’t try to sell me on death, Odysseus. I’d rather be a hired hand back up on earth, slaving away for some poor dirt farmer, than lord it over all these withered dead.”
Dr. Noe identifies this as Odysseus’s “wake-up call.” The entire heroic code—the idea that glory (kleos) echoes in eternity—is revealed to be a sham. Being dead is miserable, period. There is no Valhalla, no Elysium for the warrior.
Tragically, Achilles is still trapped in his old patterns. He asks about his son Neoptolemus and his father Peleus. When he imagines his father being mistreated, he wishes he could return to earth for just one hour to “wrap his hands around the throats” of his enemies. Even in death, he is consumed by the rage that defined his life—a rage now directed at phantom enemies he can’t even see. It is a pathetic, deeply human moment that strips the “glory” of war down to its naked, painful core.
Ajax: The Cold Shoulder
Next is Ajax, the second-greatest Greek warrior, who committed suicide after losing the contest for Achilles’ armor to Odysseus. Odysseus, ever the politician, tries to “hug it out” and patch things up.
Ajax’s response? Silence. He refuses to speak, refuses to look, and walks away into the gloom. Dr. Winkle notes the chilling finality of this moment. Some grudges follow you to the grave. There is no closure in the underworld, only the eternal repetition of earthly sorrows.
Famous Sinners and the Economics of “Sisyphism”
Odysseus then witnesses the great sinners of mythology, whose punishments mirror the “tantalizing” nature of human desire.
- Tantalus: Standing in water that drains when he stoops to drink, reaching for fruit that blows away. He is the ultimate example of “intermittent fasting” gone wrong.
- Sisyphus: Condemned to roll a boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down forever.
Dr. Noe takes a delightful detour into economics here, referencing the 19th-century French economist Frédéric Bastiat. Bastiat coined the term “Sisyphism” to describe a state of full employment that is completely unproductive. It is the perfect word for modern bureaucracy—everyone is busy, everyone is sweating, but the rock never stays at the top of the hill.
Heracles: The Phantom and the Real
Finally, Odysseus meets Heracles—or rather, his “phantom.” The text oddly claims that while his shade is in Hades, the real Heracles is feasting on Mount Olympus with his wife Hebe.
This brief encounter reinforces Odysseus’s status. By putting him face-to-face with Heracles, Homer elevates Odysseus into the pantheon of super-heroes who have braved the darkness and returned. But before Odysseus can ask any more questions, the “nations of the dead” start swarming with an eerie cry. Fearing that Persephone might send the head of Medusa to turn him to stone, Odysseus does what any sensible hero would do: he runs away.
Resurrection: Greek vs. Christian Perspectives
The episode concludes with a thoughtful comparison of the katabasis (descent) motif in Greek myth versus the Christian doctrine of resurrection.
Dr. Noe and Dr. Winkle discuss the similarities—the universal hero’s journey of facing mortality—but emphasize the profound differences noted by scholars like C.S. Lewis and Edith Hamilton:
- Nature of the Hero: In myth, the descender is a demigod (half-human); in Christianity, he is fully God and fully man.
- Reality of Death: Odysseus and Aeneas are tourists; they don’t actually die. The Christian narrative insists on a literal death.
- Purpose: Odysseus goes down for information (a self-serving “knowledge quest”). The Christian descent is an act of self-sacrifice for others.
As Machen’s quote suggested at the start, the Greek view stops at the self. It finds meaning only in the “healthy development of human faculties” in this life. Once the breath leaves the body, there is only the shadow, the silence, and the regret of Achilles.
Sponsors
This journey through the afterlife is brought to you by:
- Ratio Coffee: Dr. Winkle has officially joined the cult of the Ratio 6. He reports that it brews coffee so good it makes his old machine look like something from Office Space. No “squirty plastic,” just pure alchemy. Use code ANCO for 15% off at ratiocoffee.com.
- Hackett Publishing: Home to the “Elvis Presley” cover of The Bacchae and the accessible Lombardo translations used in this episode. Use code AN2021 for 20% off and free shipping at hackettpublishing.com.
- Ad Astra Roasters: Coffee roasted to the stars in Hillsdale, Michigan. Check out their Poetry Series (coffee + Wallace Stevens = bliss). Use code ANAA for 10% off at adastraroasters.com.
The Gustatory Parting Shot
We leave you this week with a profound thought from children’s author Kate DiCamillo (The Tale of Despereaux), perfectly capturing the mindset of a hungry squirrel (and perhaps a hungry podcaster):
“The average squirrel cogitation goes something like this: I wonder what there is to eat.”
Valete! (And Hoya Saxa!)
Would you like to learn more about the Moss Method mentioned in this episode? Visit MossMethod.com to go from Neophyte to Erudite in Ancient Greek.
