Meta Description: Join Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe in Ad Navseam Episode 146 as they explore Plato’s Academy, the math of the Demiurge, and resources to master the Latin language.
Introduction: Mint Sweaters and Dental Puns
Welcome back, classical gourmands, to Episode 146 of the Ad Navseam Podcast! Broadcasting directly from the subterranean depths of Vomitorium South—the basement of the RHB bookstore and warehouse—your hosts, Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle, return to the microphones.
The episode opens with some light sartorial banter. Jeff arrives in the bunker sporting a mint sweater, noting that he feels outclassed by Dave, who is wearing a sharp jacket and tie. Dave brushes off the compliment, explaining that as he ages, formal wear has simply become his default spare attire.
The conversation quickly pivots to Dave’s recent trip to the dentist, which he frames as a dramatic, spoken-word recitation of Boston’s 1976 hit song. Dave solemnly recounts waking up to a missing sun, losing himself in a familiar song, closing his eyes, and watching Marianne walk away. He then delivers the ultimate punchline: the dentist looked at his terrible tooth pain and told him it was going to be “more than a filling”. Jeff loves the joke, and Dave admits he spent ten hours dropping everything to perfect the musical pun after an epiphany the night before. The hosts share an appreciation for the comedic gag of reciting song lyrics as serious prose, a bit Jeff traces back to a British comedy channel dramatically reading the Beatles’ A Hard Day’s Night.
A Shout-Out to the Rhine Frontier
Opening the mailbag, the podcast delivers a hearty shout-out to Benjamin Phillips, an MA student in history at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio. Benjamin describes the podcast as the melted butter filling the “nooks and crannies” of his classical learning.
Benjamin shares his academic journey, noting he obtained a bachelor’s degree in humanities at Boyce College in Louisville, Kentucky, where he fell in love with the Latin language. He is currently working on the post-war writings of the English Puritan John Owen, specifically the Theologumena Pantodapa—a massive text that Dave is also actively translating. Dave jokes that Benjamin might be greasing the skids to secure a guest spot on the podcast. Benjamin recently defended his thesis regarding the initial Christian reactions to the breach of the Rhine Frontier in 406 AD, studying the afflicted Gallo-Romans. He concludes his letter by announcing his plans to help start a classical academy in his town, signing off with a proper Latin Valete.
The Academy: A Brotherhood in the Sacred Wood
The primary academic focus of Episode 146 resumes the podcast’s deep dive into Henri-Irénée Marrou’s A History of Education in Antiquity, picking up with a focusedlook at Plato. The hosts note that Marrou’s comprehensive text traces educational history all the way through late antiquity, concluding near the Carolingian Renaissance and the Lombard invasion.
Jeff admits a prior misconception regarding Plato’s Academy. He assumed the educational ideals outlined in texts like the Republic and the Laws were practical curriculum guidelines actively utilized in the Academy. Marrou clarifies that we actually know very little about the daily operations of the school, and much of Plato’s writing remained purely theoretical.
Unlike the commercial enterprises of the Sophists, the Academy functioned as a closed confraternity or sect. Juridically, it was organized as a religious association (thiasos) dedicated to the Muses. Following Plato’s death, it became a sanctuary dedicated to the apotheosized philosopher himself. Marrou suggests this religious veneer was a necessary precaution to soothe the bigoted Athenian democracy, which had a nasty habit of prosecuting philosophers for impiety, as seen with Socrates and Anaxagoras.
The Academy was situated in the northern environs of Athens, near Colonus, resting in the shade of a sacred wood dedicated to the hero Academos. The hosts reminisce about their own travels in Greece, recalling failed attempts to locate the excavation site on foot. They share fonder memories of walking the Piraeus shoreline on a sunny Sunday and visiting the First Cemetery of Athens to view the tomb of Heinrich Schliemann.
Gymnastics and the Rejection of March Madness
Marrou details the Platonic curriculum, noting that Plato advocated for parallel, though not exactly co-ed, education for both boys and girls. Jeff observes that the foundational pillars of this elementary education were gymnastics and music—two subjects frequently relegated to the margins or openly ridiculed in modern public schools. Plato’s vision of gymnastics possessed a specific, state-oriented focus. He spoke out violently against the competitive spirit (agon) that dominated Greek athletics. Instead of competition for its own sake, Plato aimed to restore physical education to its original purpose: preparation for war. The hosts joke that Plato would have despised the modern intra-city competition of March Madness. His curriculum favored wrestling, fencing, and light infantry maneuvers. Strikingly, the Platonic city mandated military training for women, including archery, javelin throwing, and camping. Forecasting the Hellenistic institutions of the future, Plato demanded these courses be taught in public stadia under the direction of state-paid instructors, lending the program a distinct totalitarian atmosphere.
Music of the Spheres and Unseen Circles
Alongside hygiene and diet, Plato elevated music as a central moral force. Jeff shares a personal conviction that music, at its best, provides a mystical experience that serves as a proof for the transcendent, while Dave notes that the late Latin secretary Reginald Foster shared a similar sentiment, famously declaring that if the composer Joseph Haydn and the orator Cicero were not in heaven, he had no desire to go. But while Plato praised music, he famously condemned the poets. He argued that Homer’s myths presented a false, unworthy picture of the gods, creating a deep philosophical dilemma between scientific truth and poetic illusion. To replace the poets, Plato elevated mathematics as the supreme vehicle for objective truth. Dave shares an anecdote from an undergraduate philosophy class at Calvin College taught by John Hare. Professor Hare shocked the classroom by declaring that no one has ever actually seen a circle. He explained that the geometric definition of a circle is a line whose points are equidistant from a central point. Because a physical pencil line possesses width—and a true geometric point has no dimension—any drawn circle ruins the definition. The true circle exists only as an ideal form in the mind.
Marrou explains that Plato viewed mathematics as propaedeutic. Its purpose was not merely utilitarian calculation, but to create a well-developed mind capable of receiving intelligible truth. Plato favored theoretical mathematics to understand the calculations of the Demiurge, the creator of the universe. Dave compares this to modern cosmological studies, referencing British astronomer Martin Rees’s book Just Six Numbers, which explores the extreme mathematical fine-tuning required for the universe to exist.
Age 50 and the Philosopher’s Garden
The Platonic educational timeline required immense stamina. Following secondary education and mandatory military service from ages 18 to 20, students dedicated another ten years to the advanced study of the sciences. The goal was to synthesize various branches of knowledge and detect the fundamental reality uniting them. According to the curriculum, a student would not begin the pure contemplation of goodness until the age of 50, having safely navigated the temptations of contemporary life. Dave points out a humorous biological flaw in this timeline: according to Aristotle, a man’s intellectual peak occurs at age 49. Therefore, Plato’s philosopher-kings only begin their highest contemplation while on the cognitive downward slope.
Ultimately, Marrou concludes that Plato realized the totalitarian ethic of his ancient city was impossible to execute in reality. His teachings shifted toward organizing the “city within,” focusing on a small sect of men gathered in a cultural oasis amid a vast social desert. The Platonic ideal evolved into a personalist wisdom, where the wise man spends his life cultivating his own philosophical garden, much like the Roman statesman Seneca did centuries later.
Sponsors: Fueling the Classical Renaissance
Before delivering the parting shot, the hosts extend their gratitude to the sponsors keeping the podcast operational.
- Ratio Coffee: The hosts eagerly anticipate the release of the Ratio 4, an agile, beautiful half-batch pour-over machine . The sleek machine brews between 5 and 20 ounces per batch with a proper bloom cycle and features a removable water tank. Backed by a rare five-year warranty, it offers an accessible entry point to high-end brewing. Visit ratiocoffee.com and enter the promo code ANCO2D for a 15% discount on your order.
- Hackett Publishing: With offices in Indianapolis and Cambridge, Hackett Publishing has provided high-quality, affordable translations for decades. Browsing their catalog, the hosts highlight Readings in Classical Chinese Philosophy, C.D.C. Reeve’s translation of Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics, and Stanley Burstein’s Essential Greek Historians. Dave jokes that listeners should avoid their fictional competitor, “Stackitt Publishing,” a company dedicated entirely to books about the game Jenga. Build a personal library at hackettpublishing.com and use the code AN2024 to receive a 20% discount and free shipping.
- LatinPerDiem & MossMethod: For listeners inspired to master the Latin language and ancient Greek, Dave offers tailored educational solutions. Visit mossmethod.com to pursue Greek, or explore latinperdiem.com/llpsi to learn Latin via Hans Ørberg’s Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata.
The Gustatory Parting Shot
To officially close out Episode 146, Dave delivers a highly refined Gustatory Parting Shot courtesy of the 17th-century French moralist and philosopher, François de La Rochefoucauld .
Reflecting on the nature of dining, La Rochefoucauld offers this concise observation:
“To eat is a necessity, but to eat intelligently is an art.”
Jeff admits he will need some time to sit back and contemplate the deeper meaning of the quote.
A special thanks goes out to Mishka the sound engineer for her rapid turnaround times, and to musicians Ken Tamplin and Scott Van Zen for the great music featured throughout the episode. Check out the “Lurch with Merch” section on the website to grab a QVAE NOCENT DOCENT t-shirt, beware of painful dental visits, and keep taking in the classics. Valete!
