Meta Description: Join Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle in Ad Navseam Episode 138 as they interview renowned children’s author Caroline Lawrence. Discover how she turned a “Nancy Drew in Ancient Rome” idea into the bestselling Roman Mysteries series, her tips for aspiring writers, and why the Latin language is the key to unlocking the ancient world.
Introduction: Domestic Goose Chases in the Vomitorium
Welcome back to the “Vomitorium,” listeners! It is Episode 138 of the Ad Navseam Podcast. Your hosts, Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle, are broadcasting from “Vomitorium South” on a frosty January morning.
The holiday season has wrapped up, and the hosts admit to feeling a little “antsy” and “restless.” The kids have been climbing the walls, and it is definitely time to get back to business .
Dr. Noe is especially busy, preparing for intensive teaching sessions in Grand Rapids and sunny Southern California. In the process of gathering his materials, he admits to going on a few “goose chases.” Not wild ones, mind you—just “domestic goose chases” involving lost books and notes around the house.
This leads to a delightful (and pedantic) linguistic analysis: Does “wild” modify “goose” or “chase”? The hosts conclude that in English, it modifies “goose,” creating a chase after a wild bird. In Latin, of course, the inflectional morphology would clear this up immediately. But alas, we are speaking English today.
Shout-Out: The Jewelry Store Classicist
Before the main event, we have a heartwarming shout-out to Catria Jade.
Catria is a former student of Dr. Winkle’s who sat in the front row of Intro Latin and “ate it up.” After a stint in Alabama, she is back in West Michigan working at Ingalls Jewelry in Grandville.
Catria wrote in with a fantastic story about how her Latin language skills saved the day at the jewelry counter. A couple wanted a Latin engraving on their wedding bands, but it was too long to fit. Catria used her grammatical expertise to shorten the phrase without changing the meaning—much to the skepticism (and eventual amazement) of the customers and her bosses.
To Catria, proving that Latin is useful even in the diamond business: Macte virtute!
The Main Event: Caroline Lawrence
Today’s episode features a very special guest: Caroline Lawrence, the bestselling author of the Roman Mysteries series.
Caroline joins the show from “jolly old England” via Zoom. She is a true evangelist for the classics, having written over 30 books that transport children (and adults!) to the ancient world.
The Origin Story:
Caroline’s journey to becoming an author is a classic “dumb luck” story—or perhaps, Fortuna smiling upon her.
In 1999, she was visiting her sister in California, wanting to write a screenplay. Her sister suggested, “Why don’t you write a book for kids? Like Nancy Drew in Ancient Rome?”
The idea clicked instantly. It was the perfect mashup. She could use a girl detective to explore the sensory world of Rome—the sights, smells, and sounds that she loved so much. And the timing was perfect: the Harry Potter craze had just created a massive appetite for children’s book series.
The Secret Sauce: The Hero’s Journey
Caroline reveals the structural secret behind her success: The Hero’s Journey.
Having studied screenwriting (shout out to script guru John Truby), she structures her books using the classic beats of myth:
- The Call to Adventure: The hero has a problem and a desire.
- The Mentor: A wise figure (like Pliny the Elder in her books) gives advice or a talisman.
- The Opponent: Someone stands in the way.
- The Battle: A conflict that tests the hero.
- Self-Revelation: The hero learns something about themselves (often in silence).
- The New Level: The hero returns home, changed.
She also uses the classic “Four-Character Team” found in everything from The Wizard of Oz to Star Wars:
- The Hero: Flavia (the leader/Nancy Drew).
- The Faithful Sidekick: Nubia (the loyal friend).
- The Funny One: Jonathan (the Jewish/Christian neighbor).
- The Wild One: Lupus (the mute beggar boy).
Bringing Rome to Life: Sponge on a Stick and All
One of the things Dr. Winkle loves about Caroline’s books is the “effortless” detail. The reviews praise her for weaving in facts from Pliny and Juvenal without it feeling like a history lesson.
Caroline explains that her primary inspiration is the poet Martial, the “King of the Two-Liner.” Martial describes the sensory world of Rome better than anyone—the cheap gifts, the smells, the noises. She uses these details to make the world feel lived-in.
She also emphasizes Material Culture. She visits museums not to look at the gold (“the bling”), but to look at the little oil lamps and terra cotta figures. These are “postcards from the past” that reveal what ordinary Romans cared about. Living in London, she can pop into the British Museum in 30 minutes to stare at a Greek vase or walk through the ruins of the Mithraeum under the Bloomberg building.
The “Tightrope” of Authenticity
The hosts discuss the challenge of writing about difficult topics like slavery, disability, and religion for children.
- Lupus: One of her main characters, Lupus, has had his tongue cut out. It is a violent detail, taken straight from a Martial poem (“You cut out your slave’s tongue so he can’t tell…”). Caroline worried it was too dark, but kids actually love the gritty realism. It respects their ability to handle tough stories.
- Christianity: In The Thieves of Ostia, she introduces the character of Mordecai, a Jewish doctor who becomes a Christian. Dr. Noe praises her for doing this artfully, without being “ham-fisted” or preachy. Caroline explains that since she is half-Jewish and a convert to Christianity herself, she wanted to explore what that early, Jewish-Christian world looked like.
The Aeneid for Kids?
Caroline also shares her passion for Vergil. When her publisher shot down the idea of a retelling of the Aeneid (“No one reads Bronze Age books anymore”), she found a workaround.
She wrote two standalone books based on episodes from the Aeneid:
- The Night Raid: Based on the tragic story of Nisus and Euryalus (Book 9).
- Queen of the Silver Arrow: Based on the warrior maiden Camilla (Books 7 & 11) .
Dr. Noe shares a review of The Night Raid written just that morning by his own daughter, who devoured the book in 25 minutes. Her verdict? “A very interesting book… starts dramatically… in the end, they are immortalized by Vergil.” High praise from the Noe household!.
Sponsors: Fuel for Your Hero’s Journey
This deep dive into storytelling and the ancient world is brought to you by:
- Hackett Publishing: Caroline Lawrence’s inspiration, Martial, and her source material, Vergil, are best read in the high-quality translations from Hackett.
- The Deal: Visit hackettpublishing.com and use code AN2024 for 20% off and free shipping.
- Ratio Coffee: Whether you are writing a screenplay or grading Latin quizzes, you need good coffee. The Ratio 8 and Ratio 6 brew with the precision of a Roman engineer.
- The Deal: Visit ratiocoffee.com and use code ANCO5K (The “Kong” of Coffee) for a discount.
- The Moss Method: Want to read the Latin language of Martial or the Greek of Aesop in the original? Dr. Noe’s self-paced course takes you from “Neophyte to Erudite.”
- The Deal: Visit mossmethod.com to sign up for the Greek course or the LLPSI Latin course.
The Gustatory Parting Shot
We wrap up this literary feast with a quote from Charles Dickens, a man who knew how to describe a meal. This comes from The Pickwick Papers (or perhaps another of his serialized works where he was paid by the word):
“We have had for breakfast toasts, cakes, a Yorkshire pie, a piece of beef about the size and much the shape of my portmanteau, tea, coffee, ham, and eggs.”
That is a breakfast fit for a hero—or a hungry writer.
Valete! (And watch out for domestic geese).
Resources for the Latin Learner:
- Roman Mysteries: Check out Caroline Lawrence’s books at romanmysteries.com or wherever books are sold.
The Moss Method: Inspired to learn the Latin language or Greek? Visit latinperdiem.com to start your journey today!
