Meta Description: Join Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe in Ad Navseam Episode 143 as they explore Plato’s Academy, the true Socratic Method, and resources to master the Latin language.
Introduction: Springtime and the Aging of PowerPoint
Welcome back, classical gourmands, to Episode 143 of the Ad Navseam Podcast! Broadcasting directly from the subterranean depths of the bunker, your hosts, Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle, return to the microphones for another delectable discussion of Greco-Roman civilization.
This episode opens on a bright, sunny day in Western Michigan, marking the fourth springtime since the podcast began. Jeff is currently enjoying his spring break, though his time away from the classroom is heavily occupied by reviewing resumes for an upcoming departmental hire.
Talk of academia prompts Dave to reminisce about his early days teaching double sections of Classical Mythology. He confesses a past habit of telling his morning section they were superior to the afternoon group, only to repeat the exact same flattery to the second class later that day. Dave also laments the unfortunate aging of his old PowerPoint presentations. Stuffed with stale jokes from The Simpsons, his lectures eventually morphed him into “Slideshow Bob”. In a desperate attempt to keep students entertained, Dave admits to utilizing gratuitous slide transitions, including bells, chimes, and spinning boxes. During one particular lecture on Oedipus Rex, he added a loud explosion sound effect to all forty-five slides. Despite the students rolling their eyes, Dave stubbornly refused to relent, riding the explosions out to the bitter end.
Corrigendum: Anna Maria van Schurman and the Word “Extant”
Before tackling the main topic, the hosts address a rare guest-submitted corrigendum. Following their previous interview, Dr. Anne Larsen wrote in to clarify a historical detail regarding the 17th-century polymath Anna Maria van Schurman. While van Schurman may have created twenty self-portraits during the 1630s, Larsen notes that only ten of these artworks are actually extant.
This precise vocabulary choice delights Dave, who recalls his own severe overuse of the word “extant” during graduate school. After learning the term, he began deploying it everywhere in casual conversation, eventually prompting his wife to stage a linguistic intervention.
Tackling Plato and the Academy’s Pumpkin
The primary academic focus of Episode 143 resumes the podcast’s journey through Henri-Irénée Marrou’s tome, A History of Education in Antiquity. Chapter six shifts the spotlight to Plato and the establishment of his Academy. Dave notes that the name “Plato” was actually a nickname referring to the philosopher’s broad shoulders or broad forehead.
To provide a glimpse into the daily operations of the Academy, Dave reads a comic fragment from the poet Epicrates, sourced from John Dillon’s 2003 book The Heirs of Plato. The comedic scene depicts a group of Athenian lads in the exercise grounds, bowing their heads in deep reflection as they attempt to scientifically classify a pumpkin. The students debate whether the pumpkin belongs to the genus of a round vegetable, a grass, or a tree. When a visiting Sicilian doctor mocks them for talking rubbish, Plato mildly instructs his students to ignore the insult and try the division again.
Jeff appreciates the parody, noting that the obscure pursuits of university academics have been ripe for public mockery for over two millennia. However, the fragment also reveals that Epicrates possessed genuine knowledge of the Academy’s technical terminology, utilizing specific Greek words for categorizing (aphorizein), genus (genos), and division (diairein).
The Myth of the Socratic Method
The conversation transitions to the widespread modern misunderstanding of the Socratic method. Dave expresses frustration that many contemporary educators claim to use the Socratic method when they are simply hosting a casual, opinion-based group discussion.
True Socratic dialogue, Dave explains, relies on the elenchus—a rigorous, often uncomfortable system of refutation. Rather than a friendly classroom chat, it functions more like a prosecutor interrogating a hostile witness. Socrates typically corners an arrogant interlocutor, forcing them to define a complex concept. Through relentless questioning, the witness’s ignorance is exposed until they reach a state of aporia (pathlessness or confusion), proving that human beliefs are often supported by mere emotion rather than objective truth.
Jeff compares this intense process to the Oxford tutorial system, where a professor meets one-on-one with a student to aggressively interrogate them about their weekly readings. Recalling a student evaluation from a small Latin class, Dave notes how the student mentioned being dealt with individually, though one of fifteen attendees. While the student likely meant it as a complaint about sweating under a ninety-second spotlight, Dave took it as a high compliment to his Socratic persistence.
Plato’s Political Failures and Aristocratic Ideals
Marrou highlights the fact that Plato’s original educational vision was primarily political rather than purely philosophical. Following the death of Socrates and the chaotic aftermath of the Peloponnesian War, Plato abandoned the democratic ideals of Athens. Instead, he traveled to Syracuse in Sicily to advise the tyrant Dion, hoping to implement his aristocratic concept of the philosopher-king.
During its early years, the Academy functioned as a seminary for statesmen, training political technicians and lawgivers. Plutarch provides a long list of the Academy’s influential products, including the Athenian generals Chabrias and Phocion, the orator Aristotle of Stagira, and the liberators of Thrace. The list also includes notorious tyrants and assassins, such as Callippus, who murdered Dion of Syracuse.
To Dave, it seems that this model of higher education acting as a finishing school for leaders persisted into the modern era. He mentions a recent review of presidential alma maters, pointing out the outsized influence of Ivy League schools like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. By contrast, Jeff jokes that zero American presidents have ever graduated from his local Montcalm Community College.
Aesthetics, Objective Truth, and Pop Music
Following the rise of Alexander the Great and the subsequent collapse of the independent Greek city-states, the Platonic educational model shifted its focus. Instead of training politicians, the Academy emphasized the internal pursuit of truth, elevating mathematics as the ultimate prototype of objective knowledge.
This pursuit of objectivity prompts a lively debate between the hosts regarding modern aesthetics. Dave argues that, much like the objective truths found in geometry, there should be objective standards applied to literature and music. He challenges the pervasive cultural relativism that claims all art is strictly subjective.
Jeff mentions his American Cinema course, noting that Citizen Kane regularly tops the American Film Institute’s list of the greatest movies, while Star Wars sits at number fifteen. He argues that these rankings can be defended using specific, analytical criteria. To further prove his point, Dave forces Jeff to admit his intense hatred for the 1980s pop song “We Built This City” by Starship. This leads to Jeff’s concession that the song is objectively terrible, proving that even in matters of artistic taste, underlying quality standards persist.
Sponsors: Fueling the Classical Renaissance
Before sharing the parting shot, the hosts extend their gratitude to the generous sponsors keeping the bunker operational.
- Ratio Coffee: For those seeking to abandon the mediocre, plastic-brewed haste of conventional coffee pods, Ratio offers a superior alternative. The company is preparing to launch the Ratio 4, an agile, half-batch pour-over machine capable of brewing up to 20 ounces of coffee with a proper bloom cycle. Visit ratiocoffee.com and enter the promo code ANCO6S for a 15% discount on your order.
- Hackett Publishing: For 53 years, Hackett Publishing has provided high-quality, affordable translations to the reading public. Dave mentions rejecting a hostile takeover bid from a rival named “Whackett Publishing,” preferring to remain loyal to Hackett’s massive catalog of classical literature. Build a personal library at hackettpublishing.com and use the code AN2023 to receive a 20% discount and free shipping on your entire order.
- LatinPerDiem & MossMethod: For listeners inspired to master the Latin language and ancient Greek, Dave offers tailored educational solutions. Visit mossmethod.com to go from neophyte to erudite in Greek, or explore latinperdiem.com/llpsi to tackle Hans Ørberg’s Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata. Both asynchronous courses offer direct access to Dave through weekly live “Moffice hours,” connecting language students from California to Switzerland.
The Gustatory Parting Shot
To close out Episode 143, Jeff delivers a Gustatory Parting Shot courtesy of the humorist Jack Handey, famous for his “Deep Thoughts” segments from the 1980s.
Handey offers this profound theological and culinary observation:
“When you die, if you get a choice between going to regular heaven or pie heaven, choose pie heaven. It might be a trick, but if it’s not, oh boy.”
A special thanks goes out to Mishka the sound engineer for her rapid turnaround times. Musical gratitude is extended to Scott Van Zen, who provides the screaming lead guitar on the intro and outro tracks, and to Ken Tamplin for his work on the rhythm section and bumper music. Next week, the hosts plan to finish their analysis of Plato and hint at upcoming interviews with Stanley Lombardo and a Newbery Prize medalist. Check out the “Lurch with Merch” section on the website, beware of teaching with explosion sound effects, and keep taking in the classics. Valete!
