Meta Description: Join Dr. David Noe and Dr. Jeff Winkle in Ad Navseam Episode 53 as they conclude their deep dive into Lucretius. From the “materialist explanation of dreams” to the “futility of grief,” discover why the Epicurean worldview offers a surprising (if controversial) comfort in the face of death, all while exploring the nuances of the Latin language.
Introduction: A Miasma in the Vomitorium
Welcome back to the “Vomitorium,” listeners! It is Episode 53 of the Ad Navseam Podcast, and things are off to a rocky start. Dr. David Noe has arrived in a “foul mood,” described by his co-host Dr. Jeff Winkle as a “miasma” clinging to him, mixed with the scent of insect repellent.
Perhaps it is the humidity, or perhaps it is the existential dread of discussing death and annihilation for the third week in a row. Whatever the cause, Dr. Noe warns that if the show goes down a “dark road,” the listeners have been warned. Dr. Winkle, ever the optimist, hopes to lighten things up, but Dr. Noe advises: “Don’t bet on it”.
Despite the gloom, the hosts are here to plow through the final books of Lucretius’ De Rerum Natura (or as Dr. Noe likes to call it, The Heart of Hidden Things). This is the penultimate episode on the great Epicurean poem, and they are ready to tackle the heavy stuff: atoms, dreams, and the sweet relief of non-existence.
Shout-Out: The Potter and the Professor
Before diving into the void, there is a heartwarming shout-out that might just pierce Dr. Noe’s miasma. This week, the honor goes to Jen Coles. Jen was a student of Dr. Noe’s at his current institution, following him from class to class with a passion for literature and art. During Dr. Noe’s stressful first semester—when he was trying to overhaul his own approach to the curriculum and survive the transition—Jen brought him a gift: a beautiful coffee mug she made in her pottery class . Dr. Noe confesses that this simple act of kindness “made all the difference” and “turned things around” for him. He keeps the mug on his shelf as an object of art, too precious to sully with actual coffee. To Jen, the artist and scholar: Gratias tibi agimus!
The Opening Quote: Dreams of Atoms
Dr. Winkle takes the lead with an opening quote from the late, great Charles Segal (or “Chuck” to his friends), from his 1990 article “Dreams and Poets in Lucretius.”
“Accounting for dreams is central to Lucretius’s ethical purpose, because they feed our fears about the afterlife…All bodies are continually throwing off an external film of atoms. These impinge on the anima through the pores of the body as we sleep… creating the visions and the sensations that we experience as dreams.”
This quote perfectly sets up the materialist worldview. Even our dreams—those ethereal, terrifying, or bizarre visions—are just physical atoms hitting our souls. Dr. Noe finds the image of bodies “throwing off an external film of atoms” a bit gross. “It’s an argument for frequent showers,” he quips. But for Lucretius, it is crucial. If dreams are just atoms, they aren’t messages from the gods. They aren’t prophecies. And most importantly, they aren’t proof of an afterlife filled with monsters. They are just… stuff.
Book Two: The View from the Heights
The hosts jump into Book Two, and Dr. Noe reads some rolling Latin language hexameters to lift his spirits (and practice his trilled R’s, which he admits are inferior to his 10-year-old daughter’s). The passage describes the Epicurean Sage looking down from the “heights effectively fortified by the teaching of the wise.” From this safe vantage point, the sage sees the rest of humanity:
“Wandering everywhere in their random search for the way of life… striving night and day with prodigious effort to scale the summit of wealth and to secure power.”
It is a rebuke of the rat race. Dr. Winkle notes the relevance to the Roman Republic, where ambitious men were literally killing each other for power. The Epicurean response? Step out of the race. Find Ataraxia (peace of mind) by realizing that the “summit of wealth” is just a pile of atoms.
Dr. Noe connects this to a song by the 90s band Chagall Guevara:
“All of us Neros fanning ourselves / Damp with the sweat of regret… Just killing time with our eyes to the skies / Waiting on science our Savior.”
Atoms and the Void: The Cereal Bowl Theory
To explain the physics of this world, Dr. Noe reads a passage about the “restless movement of all the particles of matter.”
Lucretius argues that because the universe is infinite, there is no “bottom” where atoms can settle. They are constantly falling, clashing, and rebounding.
“The universe has no bottom… the ultimate particles are allowed no rest anywhere in the unfathomable void.”
Dr. Noe offers a homely analogy: The Breakfast Cereal Theory. Imagine a bag of Honey Nut Cheerios. At the bottom, there is always that fine, powdery dust. That dust is the result of “Cheerio atoms” smashing together in the void of the bag. Dr. Winkle worries about how violently Dr. Noe is shaking his cereal box, but the point stands: entropy and collision create the world we see.
This leads to a discussion of Plato vs. Lucretius. Plato believes things “fall down” from a world of perfect Forms (the perfect Desk, the perfect Circle). Lucretius believes things build up from the bottom via random collision. It is a fundamental clash of worldviews: Idealism vs. Materialism.
The Gods: Good Epicureans
If the universe is just atoms, where are the gods?
Lucretius doesn’t deny they exist. But his gods are Good Epicureans. They are made of “fine, gossamer atoms” and live in the “inter-worlds” (intermundia), far away from us.
They spend their time drinking divine wine (Pinot Noir, not Manischewitz) and enjoying their own immortality.
“Who has the power to rule the entirety of the immeasurable? Who has the power to hold in his hand the strong reins… to be in every place at every time?”
Lucretius argues it is actually insulting to think the gods are micromanaging our lives. Why would a blissful, immortal being care if you cut them off in traffic? Why would they bother hurling lightning bolts at their own temples? It makes no sense. Dr. Noe notes that this solves the Problem of Pain by dismissing it. The gods aren’t ignoring your suffering because they are mysterious; they are ignoring it because they literally don’t care.
Death: The End of Fear?
Finally, they tackle the big one: Death.
Lucretius argues that the soul (anima) is mortal. It is made of atoms, and when the body dies, the soul atoms disperse like smoke.
Therefore, “Hell is Now.”
“All the punishments that tradition locates in the abyss of Acheron actually exist in our life.”
Sisyphus pushing the rock? That’s just the politician seeking power. Tantalus thirsty in the water? That’s the greedy man who is never satisfied.
The hosts discuss the famous passage where Lucretius mocks the mourner:
“Never again will your dear children race for the prize of your first kisses… One wretched damnable day has dispossessed you of every one of life’s many precious gifts.”
Lucretius’s answer? “You won’t exist, so you won’t care.” Dr. Noe is unpersuaded. “Annihilation has never persuaded me that it’s something that you can say is a better state… How is it better for someone not to exist at all?”. Dr. Winkle agrees. The “comfort” of non-existence is cold comfort indeed for a father who wants to kiss his children. It explains away the grief, but it doesn’t heal it.
Sponsors: Fuel for Your Atoms
This journey through the void is supported by:
- Hackett Publishing: For the Smith translation of Lucretius used in this episode. Visit hackettpublishing.com and use code AN2021 for 20% off.
- Ad Astra Roasters: Based in Hillsdale, Michigan. Try the Whitney blend for a lighter roast or the Tenebris for the dark void. Visit adastraroasters.com and use code ANAA for 15% off.
- Ratio Coffee: Dr. Noe loves his oyster-colored Ratio 8, and Dr. Winkle swears by the stainless steel Ratio 6. Visit ratiocoffee.com and use code ANCO for 15% off.
Conclusion: Office Hours and Understatements
Dr. Noe reminds listeners about the Moss Method “Back to School” sale. He is now offering Office Hours every Friday morning for students to ask questions about Greek, the New Testament, or Aeschylus. And don’t forget the Stickers! For $3.99, you get a sticker and a hand-signed note. “We’re not going to put ink on the bottom of our foot and step on the envelope,” Dr. Noe promises. “This is hand signed.”
The Gustatory Parting Shot
We wrap up with a quote from Bee Wilson (from her book First Bite). Dr. Noe warns that he is not enthusiastic about this one, calling it a “study in understatement.”
“Eating is about food.”
Can’t argue with that.
Valete! (And tune in next week for the final installment of Lucretius!).
Resources for the Latin Learner:MossMethod: Want to read Lucretius’s atomist poetry in the original, or learn Greek? Visit latinperdiem.com to go from “Neophyte to Erudite” with Dr. Noe’s self-paced courses.
