Meta Description: Join Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe in Ad Navseam Episode 54 as they welcome the autumn chill and finish their deep dive into Lucretius and De Rerum Natura. From the “sweet decay” of fall to the material explanation of language, discover why the Epicurean worldview has a surprising connection to modern science—and why Scottish fried pies are considered “sinister.”
Introduction: Autumn in the Vomitorium
Welcome back to the “Vomitorium,” listeners! It is Episode 54 of the Ad Navseam Podcast, and the seasons are definitely changing. Your hosts, Dr. Jeff Winkle and Dr. David Noe, are broadcasting from a studio that finally feels crisp and cool.
As Dr. Winkle walked over, he felt the “crispness in the air” and a hint of autumn. Dr. Noe, ever the poet, describes the scent of the season as the “sweet decay” of falling leaves—a phrase Dr. Winkle thinks would make a great name for a cologne . It is the perfect atmosphere for bonfires, cider, and pumpkin spice donut holes. However, Dr. Noe draws the line at hayrides. He finds them itchy, uncomfortable, and generally unpleasant (“Lurch around… get some chaff down your back”) . Despite this aversion, the hosts joke about offering a “pre-trip hayride” for their upcoming Ad Navseam Tour of Greece—a bonding event where everyone piles onto a wagon and lurches into the woods. It’s team building, Ad Navseam style.
Shout-Out: The Classical Generalist
Before diving back into the atoms, we have a shout-out to William Frost. William is a frequent listener who earned a BA in classical languages from Marquette University and is currently working on an MA in Ancient Greek at Colorado University, Boulder. His interests are impressively broad: Ancient Greek, later Latin, Renaissance, and the early modern period. Dr. Noe notes that this is “very broad” indeed. William has even achieved “Super Fan” status by buying a sticker to show he is “taking in and keeping down the classics.” Salve, William!
The Opening Quote: The Corporeality of the Imaginary
Dr. Noe sets the stage with a quote from Gian Biagio Conte’s Latin Literature (translated by Solodow). It highlights Lucretius’s unique style:
“The most distinctive feature of Lucretian style is concreteness of expression… the visible, perceptible quality of the things discussed, the corporeality of the imaginary.”
Conte argues that Lucretius’s style is “severe,” “grandiose,” and capable of “prophetic invective,” yet never loses itself in “pomposity.” Dr. Winkle disagrees slightly. He thinks Lucretius does teeter on the edge of pomposity, especially when he claims to explain everything to “even the dullest wit.” But Dr. Noe argues that Lucretius is just having a blast. He is proud of his innovation—channeling Epicurus to the Romans—and his zeal is genuine, even if his ego is a bit inflated.
Renaming the Masterpiece (Again)
The hosts continue their quest to rename De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things).
Listener Mark Muth suggests:
- “The Answer Key”
- “All the Answers”
Another listener suggests a Douglas Adams title:
- “Life, the Universe, and Everything”
It fits perfectly. Lucretius really does try to explain everything—from the movement of the stars to the reason you fall in love—using nothing but atoms and void.
Book Four: The Sloughing of Atoms
The hosts pick up in Book Four, discussing the Simulacra (images). Lucretius argues that all objects are constantly shedding thin films of atoms, like a snake shedding its skin or a cicada leaving its shell. These films float through the air and strike our eyes (causing sight) or our minds (causing thoughts and dreams).
Dr. Noe brings up his favorite analogy again: The Cereal Box.
When you get to the bottom of a bag of Frosted Mini-Wheats, there is all that fine, sugary dust.
- The Atoms: The cereal pieces are the atoms.
- The Simulacra: The dust is the film they slough off. Dr. Winkle is horrified by the idea of drinking the milk with the dust (“That grosses me out”), but admits it is a good image for Lucretian physics.
Dreams and Centaurs: The Mash-Up
This theory explains dreams and mythical creatures. Why do we see Centaurs in our dreams if they don’t exist? Lucretius says that the film of a man and the film of a horse just happen to stick together in the air (“like cobwebs or gold leaf”) and then float into your brain.
“Certainly, the image of a centaur is not derived from a living being since no such creature ever existed.”
Dr. Noe calls him a “killjoy” for denying the existence of centaurs. But for Lucretius, this is liberation. You don’t have to fear monsters in the afterlife because monsters are just accidental atomic mash-ups.
The Origin of Language: Squawking and Barking
In Book Five, Lucretius tackles the origin of language.
He argues that human speech isn’t a divine gift. It is just an evolution of animal sounds.
“Even domestic animals… despite their dumbness, regularly utter distinct and different sounds according to whether they are afraid or in pain or full of joy.”
He uses the example of Molossian mastiffs. The sound they make when they are angry (snarling) is different from when they bark loudly. If dogs can do it, why is it so special that humans developed different sounds for different things? Dr. Noe compares this to the “squawking” of birds (or children). It is a purely naturalistic, evolutionary explanation that knocks humanity off its high horse. We aren’t special; we are just chatty animals.
The Plague of Athens: A Grim Finale
The poem ends in Book Six with a grim description of the Plague of Athens (430 BC). Lucretius adapts this directly from the historian Thucydides. He describes the “deadly miasma” coming from Egypt, emptying the streets and draining the city of life . Why end here? It seems incredibly pessimistic. Dr. Winkle reads Smith’s explanation: The plague represents life without Epicurean philosophy. The Athenians were “philosophically as well as medically unequipped” to deal with the horror.
“The condition of the plague’s victims symbolizes for Lucretius the moral condition of those ignorant of Epicurean philosophy.”
By showing the hell of the plague, Lucretius highlights the salvation of his philosophy. It is a dark ending, but perhaps a hopeful one for the initiate.
Sponsors: Fuel for Your Atoms
This journey through the nature of things is supported by:
- Ad Astra Roasters: Dr. Winkle has been drinking the Whitney blend for five days straight and loves it. Visit adastraroasters.com and use code ANAA for 15% off.
- Hackett Publishing: For the Englert and Smith translations of Lucretius used in this series. Visit hackettpublishing.com and use code AN2021 for 20% off and free shipping.
- Ratio Coffee: Dr. Noe says the Ratio 8 is an investment that lasts. “I’m going to use this coffee machine for 15 years. Minimum.” Visit ratiocoffee.com and use code ANCO for 15% off.
The Gustatory Parting Shot: Sinister Pies
Dr. Winkle delivers the promised Thanksgiving-themed quote. It comes from Janet Clarkson’s book Pie: A Global History.
She describes a type of pie associated with Scotland that is so dangerous it is classified as “sinister.”
“It is the fried pie… a baked pie cooked a second time by frying.”
Dr. Noe’s response? “You had me at fried.”
And with that, the Lucretius series is cooked.
Valete! (And join us next week for a takedown of Latin State Mottos!)
Resources for the Latin and Greek Learner:The Moss Method: Want to join Dr. Noe for Office Hours? Sign up for his self-paced Greek course and get access to weekly Q&A sessions. Visit latinperdiem.com.
